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But in the meantime, republican people like the governor in wisconsin could set labor law back 50 years.

 

Now you're just being dramatic. We're not going to have child-labor or eliminate OSHA if Walker eliminates the government unions in WI.

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Unions have only held collective bargaining rights in Wisconsin for 50 years, so yes, it would be setting labor law back 50 years.

 

But seriously, think of the implications. You're a soon-to-be teacher, and you're considering where you want to work. Are you going to go to a state which is going to treat you as a contract employee and your union can't do anything but file grievances for you if you get fired, or are you going to go to another state where your job is safer because the political power your union exerts gives you security? Republicans can herp a derp about the budget all damn day, but huge cutbacks in education spending isn't exactly paving the road to a bright future.

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I understand what you're saying in a way. But it is my firm belief that no one gives me job security but me. I don't need a union to keep me from getting fired and I don't want anyone else to have a union to keep them from getting fired if they deserve it. Keeping bad employees that deserve to be fired is worse than not having a union. Bad employees reduce morale, destroy productivity, give a bad name to the organization, and reduce the overall percieved value of the organization, which lead to problems exactly like this.

 

Layoffs, of course, are a different and more complicated matter. But that fault, again, lies with the politicians WHO ARE SPENDING TOO MUCH MONEY and choose to cut teachers' salaries first instead of looking for other spending to cut.

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People are attracted to those jobs, at least in part, because of the security they provide. The knowledge that, upon getting hired, you have a large organization with political influence to help you (along with the job security) is a large portion of why being a teacher is a good profession. Remove those perks, and you'll have even less people going into the field - further hurting our already-mediocre education system.

 

Oh, also, Walker passed additional spending to the tune of $140 million within his first two weeks of getting elected - and now uses the figure of a $100 million plus shortfall this fiscal year to justify the cuts he's so vehemently fighting for. Guess he wasn't overly concerned about the deficit then. And his own state's equivalent of the CBO concluded that not only is the state not in need of austerity measures, but it could end the year with a surplus (at least before Walker's spending bill passed).

 

Finally, removing the collective bargaining is completely unnecessary from a fiscal perspective. The unions have already said they'd agree to the financial measures in the bill requiring limits on pay raises, increasing contributions to pensions and healthcare, etc. The collective bargaining removal doesn't do anything to save money.

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People are attracted to those jobs, at least in part, because of the security they provide. The knowledge that, upon getting hired, you have a large organization with political influence to help you (along with the job security) is a large portion of why being a teacher is a good profession. Remove those perks, and you'll have even less people going into the field - further hurting our already-mediocre education system.

 

 

The sort of person that's attracted to jobs that have enhanced job security over and above meritocracy is probably not the sort of person we want teaching our kids.

 

 

 

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Indeed.

 

In fact, anyone that's been in the military knows how badly this sucks. We have none of the benefits of being in a union, but all of the problems. It's impossible to fire bad people, who get promoted because of "tenure" and create more bad people.

 

Unions turn the entire work experience on its head. If corporations and the government were allowed to pay according to performance and fire for the same reason- at will- they would attract better people and force the bad ones to either seek employment according to their skill set or improve themselves. After all, the reason we have teachers is to educate our kids, not so that the unions can have a bargaining chip at the table ("We need more benefits so our children will be better educated!!!one!1!"). Once they've lost that focus, the process becomes entirely corrupt.

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Unions have only held collective bargaining rights in Wisconsin for 50 years, so yes, it would be setting labor law back 50 years.

 

But seriously, think of the implications. You're a soon-to-be teacher, and you're considering where you want to work. Are you going to go to a state which is going to treat you as a contract employee and your union can't do anything but file grievances for you if you get fired, or are you going to go to another state where your job is safer because the political power your union exerts gives you security? Republicans can herp a derp about the budget all damn day, but huge cutbacks in education spending isn't exactly paving the road to a bright future.

 

I think you've completely ignored just how amazingly over-unionized teachers are. Once you hit your tenure, there is *nothing* short of committing a crime that will get you fired. You could be the worst teacher in the world after you get tenured. Lazy, worthless, drain on the system. All they can do is move you to a less important teaching roll, they have to pay you until you decide to quit.

 

Secondly, PK, Ireland is having issues related to the banking and housing crisis. My topic was the corporate tax and how it's helping NI and Ireland greatly. Without the corporate tax, the situation would be very much worse. Compare Belfast today to Belfast 20 years ago and then consider how well the low corporate tax has benefited Belfast. Thank Clinton for that, btw. Slick Willy, that is.

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So the solution to better education is to remove one of the primary perks of being a teacher, and then expect people to meritoriously want to be teachers, anyway - because so many people are chomping at the bit to be teachers now that we'll be fine if some of them stop wanting to be teachers. That's just silly.

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So the solution to better education is to remove one of the primary perks of being a teacher, and then expect people to meritoriously want to be teachers, anyway - because so many people are chomping at the bit to be teachers now that we'll be fine if some of them stop wanting to be teachers. That's just silly.

 

Actually, if you look at the college graduation rates, there are quite a few people "chomping" at the bit to be teachers. I'm pretty sure 10% of the population right now wouldn't mind being a teacher either, security be damned.

 

I would say that if job security in the face of utter incompetence shouldn't be a "perk". Why do teachers need such a perk? It seems completely illogical to place that sort of carrot at the end of a stick for teachers. The idea of tenure is a joke. Why should being in a job for 10 years (or whatever the time it takes) mean that you can't be let go if you are bad at the job?

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Actually, if you look at the college graduation rates, there are quite a few people "chomping" at the bit to be teachers. I'm pretty sure 10% of the population right now wouldn't mind being a teacher either, security be damned.

 

I would say that if job security in the face of utter incompetence shouldn't be a "perk". Why do teachers need such a perk? It seems completely illogical to place that sort of carrot at the end of a stick for teachers. The idea of tenure is a joke. Why should being in a job for 10 years (or whatever the time it takes) mean that you can't be let go if you are bad at the job?

Because if you were bad at your job, you should have been fired during those ten years.

 

I have difficulty associating tenure with high school/grade school. Yet from a university standpoint, tenure is quite rewarding. It basically provides you with the ability of free speech and the power to bring up controversial subjects without penalty. For instance, 4-5 years ago a sociology professor at St. Mary's University in Halifax, NS hung up the Mohammad cartoons on his office door. All hell broke loose, and people called for him to be fired. The university stated that they couldn't fire him because he had tenure (though all universities have the power to do so, they just won't use it because it's a long tedious process). In actually, the professor was promoting discussion and critical thinking among the student body.

 

In science, tenure forces professors to publish, publish, publish, teach well, research, and write grants. Those that don't do those six things well enough, are discarded (and it DOES happen). Think of it as a job evaluation. Once tenured, professors can focus on research and teaching without the fear of "not publishing." Needless to say, it makes the graduate student's life a lot easier.

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Because if you were bad at your job, you should have been fired during those ten years.

 

I have difficulty associating tenure with high school/grade school. Yet from a university standpoint, tenure is quite rewarding. It basically provides you with the ability of free speech and the power to bring up controversial subjects without penalty. For instance, 4-5 years ago a sociology professor at St. Mary's University in Halifax, NS hung up the Mohammad cartoons on his office door. All hell broke loose, and people called for him to be fired. The university stated that they couldn't fire him because he had tenure (though all universities have the power to do so, they just won't use it because it's a long tedious process). In actually, the professor was promoting discussion and critical thinking among the student body.

 

In science, tenure forces professors to publish, publish, publish, teach well, research, and write grants. Those that don't do those six things well enough, are discarded (and it DOES happen). Think of it as a job evaluation. Once tenured, professors can focus on research and teaching without the fear of "not publishing." Needless to say, it makes the graduate student's life a lot easier.

 

The university, in general, isn't funded by the schools and tenure there is a rigorous process. In high school/grade school it is about time. The difference is also vast, there is no 'free speech' bonus in grade school or high school.

 

I understand what you are saying about college professors though. I still don't agree with tenure for college profs, I've had some terrible professors that had tenure, couldn't teach, and had no incentive to get better.

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So, while the teacher's are illegally taking 'sick' days to protest, and trying to claim that they're doing it 'for the children', who is actually, um, teaching the children?

 

 

Right. Didn't think so.

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So the solution to better education is to remove one of the primary perks of being a teacher, and then expect people to meritoriously want to be teachers, anyway - because so many people are chomping at the bit to be teachers now that we'll be fine if some of them stop wanting to be teachers. That's just silly.

I bet there are alot more than you realize.

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There's a legitimate need to protect teachers from parents. I don't like the tenure system (but I also don't think that teachers are supposed to do anything controversial, they're all teaching basic concepts), but making teachers at-will employees is a rather bad idea.

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Because if you were bad at your job, you should have been fired during those ten years.

 

Also, after 10 years... What if you just stop trying? You get tenured, then you have no incentive to improve or continue to do what you were doing before.

 

You say they should have been fired during the first 10 years, but I say its easy to abuse a system that you know will be easy as shit after you get tenured. Try hard till you get the carrot, then coast for the following 20 years or until they offer you an amazing retirement package early.

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Oh yah, public high school teachers get amazing benefits.

 

Please.

 

Have you not seen teacher benefits? Are you fucking kidding? You get paid a competitive year round salary, get tons of days off, and are only required to work till 3 pm.

 

Handy Website

 

Let's just assume they are low to mid. so 35-40k teaching salary, 9 months of the year. Tons of vacation.

 

Yeah sorry, not feeling any boo-hoo for teachers. I hear far too much boo hoo I'm not getting paid the same as professors, blah blah blah. Teachers earn a competitive salary and only work 3/4ths of the year. Throw in a summer job, or summer school, and you can easily add 8-12k on that figure. Or you can just have a 3 month vacation. Yeah, terrible.

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Have you not seen teacher benefits? Are you fucking kidding? You get paid a competitive year round salary, get tons of days off, and are only required to work till 3 pm.

 

Handy Website

 

Let's just assume they are low to mid. so 35-40k teaching salary, 9 months of the year. Tons of vacation.

 

Yeah sorry, not feeling any boo-hoo for teachers. I hear far too much boo hoo I'm not getting paid the same as professors, blah blah blah. Teachers earn a competitive salary and only work 3/4ths of the year. Throw in a summer job, or summer school, and you can easily add 8-12k on that figure. Or you can just have a 3 month vacation. Yeah, terrible.

Yes, they usually need a masters to get hired. It's a pretty shitty salary.

 

No teacher will ever say they are in it for the money.

 

You're being pretty naive. Like any teacher gets off at 3 pm goes home and doesn't work on their next day's class, or homework grading, or administrative stuff.

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Teachers work 60 hours a week during the school year with no overtime of any kind.

 

All for the princely starting salary of 35k/year.

 

Shit I should have been a teacher I could be making BANK.

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are only required to work till 3 pm.

 

 

I just threw up in my mouth in disgust of someone actually believing this.

 

Teachers work as many or more hours than any other profession I know of during the school year.

 

By the way, I'm currently a 5th grade teacher in Bangkok (that's in Thailand for all of our "edumacated" people.) I wake up at 5 AM everyday and don't get home until 5 PM at the earliest, and I work at one of the easiest private schools. That is the bare minimum for my work day not including having to go get school supplies, lesson plan, grade, or anything else. Not to mention teaching in Thailand is by far easier and better paying (for cost of living) than in the U.S.

 

In case anyone was wondering I make 38,000 Baht a month which is about 1,267 US dollars. Meanwhile, Thai teachers make around five to seven thousand Baht a month and manage fine.

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I agree with this.

 

I can definitely vouch for this. Working for a private school in Thailand I've learned quickly how problematic parents can be. There are no teacher unions here, and the schools will almost always side with parents over a teacher, especially at a private school where tuition is high and the parents are quite wealthy for Thai standards.

 

This is in a culture that frowns upon confrontation and people refuse to show they're upset or complain about things.

 

Imagine this scenario in America where the normal person has an in your face "I'm gonna get mine" attitude. Parents are crazy and think they know everything, especially in America.

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