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Tenure is one of the main reasons professors become professors. Most aren't paid that much (at least for 20-30 years), but pension + tenure are the two main perks of being a professor. I really don't understand how people can be in favor of removing incentives for smart people to become teachers, given the state of our education at large today.

 

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

What, 99k isn't enough for a professor job? You fucking kidding me?

 

I can understand saying k-12 state education *MIGHT* need more money, but we're talking double if not triple for a professor. Where the hell are you getting 20-30 years from? Yeah, you may not be tenured before 6 or 7 years as a professor, but you aren't getting chicken scratch. I've read somewhere about $75k average.

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The incentives are already there, and yet our education is in the state it is in. So, my question is, how are those related?

 

My question is how does removing them make for better teachers?

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?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

What, 99k isn't enough for a professor job? You fucking kidding me?

 

I can understand saying k-12 state education *MIGHT* need more money, but we're talking double if not triple for a professor. Where the hell are you getting 20-30 years from? Yeah, you may not be tenured before 6 or 7 years as a professor, but you aren't getting chicken scratch. I've read somewhere about $75k average.

Yeah professors are overpaid. I mean you have to do 4 years as an undergrad, 6 years for a PhD, and then 2-6 years as a postdoc, but you can start as an assistant professor at like 70k and you're only 35. Hell, you'll only work 80 hours a week, so you'll have an entire 88 hours a week that you DON'T have to work.

 

For the record, the US university system is still the best in the world, by a wide (although shrinking) margin.

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That's not true RD. The US university system is the best in the world if you can pay for it - just like our healthcare. In terms of accessibility and affordability, it is not. As for the professor bit, you're right - and Nate is still an idiot, as usual.

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Yeah professors are overpaid. I mean you have to do 4 years as an undergrad (Woooohooo! $80k student loans), 6 years for a PhD (Woooohooo $18k/year salary baby!), and then 2-6 years as a postdoc (Woooohooo! $36k/year salary baby, here comes the high life and 60 hour work weeks...), but you can start as an assistant professor at like $51k/year salary and you're only 35 (Woooohooo! Time to buy a house, car, and start a family... through adoption... because your wife's ovaries have dried up...). Hell, you'll only work 88 hours a week, so you'll have an entire 80 hours a week that you DON'T have to work (WOOOOOHOOOOO! Tenure allows you to work only 70 hours per week! But by then you're 40 and making $65k/year, so life is good).

Fixed for accuracy.

 

As an aside, I want to become a professor at Nate's $99k university.

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Nate's university, like Nate's facts, do not exist. Fortunately for Nate, the absence of these things do not limit his ability to form and defend an opinion about the subject.

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Nate's university, like Nate's facts, do not exist. Fortunately for Nate, the absence of these things do not limit his ability to form and defend an opinion about the subject.

Some profs do make that much money... they've just been in the business a whole long time. The $51k that I mentioned is for a new assistant professor right out of school. The price shifts depending on the university.

 

The University of Tennessee pays its professors fairly well, with new professors starting around $63k. However, keep in mind that UT is a research university and therefore professors get paid more because they bring money into the university.

 

Link UT salaries in 2008/2009:

http://data.tennessean.com/DB/dbc/utsalaries08.php?mode=1&sr=0&pg=20&sf=&sd=&location=Knoxville&locationOP=LK&title=ALL&titleOP=LK&dept=Ecology+%26+Evol+Biology&deptOP=LK&name=&nameOP=LK

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What I'd really like to stop is the ridiculous assertion that disabling unions is somehow the death knell for the teaching profession and that unions create a better teaching environment or create better teachers.

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What I'd really like to stop is the ridiculous assertion that disabling unions is somehow the death knell for the teaching profession and that unions create a better teaching environment or create better teachers.

Teacher unions protect the interests of the teachers as much as worker unions in the automotive industry, MLB, NFL, NHL, steel workers, health care workers, etc. Unions don't make any of these people "better" at their jobs, but they do provide support when such things as this incident happens. Should the teacher be fired, hell no. Will that parent push for the teacher to get fired, hell yeah. Parents flip out over small things and the teacher's union can basically tell them to fuck off, without directly telling them to fuck off.

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Unions step in when the leadership is weak. Like I said, any organization that ever got a union, deserved a union. The problem is, at the level that decides whether that teacher will be fired or not, it's all political, and we know what happens when a bunch of pseudo-politicians run things.

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80k - that's probably the low-end for professors.

 

I'm sure some professors make over 200k. But so do doctors and lawyers. Why is no one bitching about the high costs of legal and health fees? (Well... I guess that's why we got healthcare reforms)

 

And professor =/= k12 teacher.

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80k - that's probably the low-end for professors.

 

I'm sure some professors make over 200k. But so do doctors and lawyers. Why is no one bitching about the high costs of legal and health fees? (Well... I guess that's why we got healthcare reforms)

 

And professor =/= k12 teacher.

Ummm... did you look at the link I posted about professor salaries?

 

Daren Hulsey $62k <- Brand new professor at UT.

Dan Simberloff $191k <- Highest paid faculty member, has been at UT for 12 years, though he was stolen from UF Gainesville. For you ecology/biology guys out there, Dan is the guy that applied pesticides to entire islands of Mangroves in order to study recolonization. Even the department head only makes $136k, and he's been at UT for 29 years. the bigger the name, the bigger the paycheck.

 

I should probably note, the highest paid people on campus are professors that end their names with "MD," which we all know stands for "Mentally Deranged."

 

My good friend just got a job at Creighton in Omaha, NE. Her starting salary: $51k. When she talked about whether she should dispute salary, other faculty here and there stated that this is pretty much standard nowadays for a starting professor after all of the recent education cuts.

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That's not true RD. The US university system is the best in the world if you can pay for it - just like our healthcare. In terms of accessibility and affordability, it is not. As for the professor bit, you're right - and Nate is still an idiot, as usual.
I mean the part of the university system that works; not undergraduate education. Don't be crazy.

 

The rest of the world is trying to emulate the research university system we've got, because it's extremely competitive and produces very high-quality research. A lot of European countries are similar, although smaller in size. For all you hear about China being a rising power, they aren't even in the same league as Europe and the US. They might be in 20 years, but right now we train their PhDs (that are worth something) because they can't.

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What it really did was rather blatantly prove that the removal of collective bargaining rights is unnecessary for the state budget. And get a lot of republicans fired in 2012. It also makes it easier for dems to repeal, because instead of repealing an entire budget, now they have to only repeal the collective bargaining part.

 

Also Idaho removing tenure is hilarious. Now if you have a super-qualified candidate who is offered a job in Idaho (are there colleges in Idaho?!) and one where he can get tenure, which one do you think he's going to take?

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What it really did was rather blatantly prove that the removal of collective bargaining rights is unnecessary for the state budget. And get a lot of republicans fired in 2012. It also makes it easier for dems to repeal, because instead of repealing an entire budget, now they have to only repeal the collective bargaining part.

 

Also Idaho removing tenure is hilarious. Now if you have a super-qualified candidate who is offered a job in Idaho (are there colleges in Idaho?!) and one where he can get tenure, which one do you think he's going to take?

 

 

Hopefully all the other states follow and get rid of the bullshit. I know it is unlikely, but it would be a perfect world.

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Also Idaho removing tenure is hilarious. Now if you have a super-qualified candidate who is offered a job in Idaho (are there colleges in Idaho?!) and one where he can get tenure, which one do you think he's going to take?
These laws are invariably targeting K-12 education. Legislatures will cut money off the top of public universities, but they don't directly get involved with personnel.

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And get a lot of republicans fired in 2012.

 

I doubt it, actually. Our debt and deficit are becoming big enough problems that average citizens are starting to notice it. Sure, it may be a clever GOP tactic to bring it up every five seconds, but that doesn't make it a bad idea to educate the citizens about it. As much as I hate pretty much all politicians, the Speaker brought up a good point, in that we're trillions in debt and our deficit is in the hundreds of billions, and the Democrats want to bring only $5 billion in cuts to the table. If anything, that's a fantastic sound bite.

 

If the Democrats don't step up to the plate and start at least acting serious about this issue, I see them losing even more seats everywhere. Whether or not the GOP is actually serious remains to be seen. But at least they're acting the part.

 

It also makes it easier for dems to repeal, because instead of repealing an entire budget, now they have to only repeal the collective bargaining part.

 

This is true. Since it was broken down that way, the liability for the long term is exactly this. They made it easier to re-pass later, if the Democrats ever get elected to office again.

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Yeah professors are overpaid. I mean you have to do 4 years as an undergrad, 6 years for a PhD, and then 2-6 years as a postdoc, but you can start as an assistant professor at like 70k and you're only 35. Hell, you'll only work 80 hours a week, so you'll have an entire 88 hours a week that you DON'T have to work.

 

For the record, the US university system is still the best in the world, by a wide (although shrinking) margin.

 

Give me a fucking break, I would love to be a professor. You say 80 hours a week? I say prove it. NONE of my professors worked those hours, not even close.

 

Yeah, some weeks they worked 80 hours, I know that. But not every week, no way in hell. Maybe before you get tenured there is a lot more push for it, but from my discussions I estimated 50-60 hours on average, including transit. I know one of my teachers would have fallen into the 80 hour week category, but that's because he picked up tons of additions, did a full credit workload, and went far above and beyond the other profs. But that is countered by another professor I had, senior professor who didn't work one second outside of his class+office hours. Once he left his office, he was done working. Great guy, lousy effort.

 

Tenure at its best there.

 

For some professors, tenure is perfect, they keep teaching as they should and they act as professors can, with full freedom of speech. Then you get the set of teachers who take the piss out of the system and make you hire another teacher just to cover the work they don't do.

 

I would rather reward the teachers who go above and beyond, same goes for the professors.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professors_in_the_United_States

 

 

You could go to my school in Minnesota, a state school, the most affordable school in the state (4 year, reasonable school) and they made 86k 8 years ago. The rate is closer to 96k now.

 

In fact, here you go.

 

The fucking PDF that has their salaries, along with every fucking employee, transparency ftw I guess!

 

http://www.mnsu.edu/humanres/publicinfo/secb.pdf

 

You need this site and other PDFs if you want to figure out who's a full prof...

 

http://www.mnsu.edu/humanres/publicinfo/publicinfo.html

 

Also, 51k starting salary is "the standard"? Starting Associate salary here is 58,968, quite a bit higher than 51k 'norm' I would keep looking at that price to be honest.

 

59k starting at a state school for an associate professor? Sorry, no QQ here.

 

Here, http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/11/05/worldpay

 

Shows a comparison in a few different terms. The US is second behind Canada, but those two are far ahead of 3rd place.

 

Saudi Arabia has the highest pay for senior profs... If we only consider GDP, of course things change, placing India in it's own little world, but I think this has more to do with the separation of money in these areas rather than a legitimate and conscious effort to put education on a platform (Except maybe Saudi Arabia).

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The deficit is, and always will be, secondary to jobs. When republican policies dont' result in job creation, they'll be out on their ass ranting about things which the average American not only doesn't understand but is apathetic about. And this move in wisconsin actually does dems a huge favor - it creates something quite clear for them to be opposed to. "Republicans believe in fucking teachers while passing tax cuts for businesses." "Republicans want to balance the budget, but passed extensions of tax breaks for Big Oil." "Republicans are the party of corporations, and we are the party of you!"

 

Especially in an economically unstable time, populism works wonders - which is why republicans won't do nearly as well in 2012 as they did in 2010.

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The deficit is, and always will be, secondary to jobs. When republican policies dont' result in job creation, they'll be out on their ass ranting about things which the average American not only doesn't understand but is apathetic about. And this move in wisconsin actually does dems a huge favor - it creates something quite clear for them to be opposed to. "Republicans believe in fucking teachers while passing tax cuts for businesses." "Republicans want to balance the budget, but passed extensions of tax breaks for Big Oil." "Republicans are the party of corporations, and we are the party of you!"

 

Especially in an economically unstable time, populism works wonders - which is why republicans won't do nearly as well in 2012 as they did in 2010.

 

Or, you know, the flip side.

 

Republicans cut government spending and gave businesses incentives to hire more people! Yay jobs and yay less government.

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