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Tender Peaches

The Point of Contention Thread

What are your usual availabilities for the timeslots below? (all times EST)  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Weekdays Evenings : 7PM - 10PM (excluding Fridays)

    • Generally available
      13
    • Depends on the day
      5
    • Generally unavailable
      2
  2. 2. Saturday Mornings : 10AM - Noon

    • Generally available
      8
    • Sometimes available
      9
    • Generally unavailable
      3
  3. 3. Saturday Evenings : 8PM - 10PM

    • Generally available
      10
    • Sometimes available
      5
    • Generally unavailable
      5
  4. 4. Sunday Mornings : 10AM - Noon

    • Generally available
      9
    • Sometimes available
      6
    • Generally unavailable
      5
  5. 5. Sunday Nights : 8PM - 10PM

    • Generally available
      14
    • Sometimes available
      3
    • Generally unavailable
      3


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Matchmaker seems to work for 3 players. I'm 80% certain it works 95% of the time for up to 7 players.

 

New Lobby features a single team. There is nothing to do beside chatting or changing your color. It's bland. There's really nothing I want people to be messing with at the beginning of the game so might as well make it as stable as possible. The host can (probably?) move folks around but that's it. It has no effect on how they will be seeded into teams - the only tangible effect is their order in the F3 screen.

 

 

 

    Actions
        Delegate Players()
        Balance Factionites()
        Distribute Mercenaries()
        Assign Diplomacy()

 

 

 

When the game begins, each (every?) player is neutral towards one another. Players who have pledged to a faction (through their bank file) are sorted accordingly and immediately added to their respective team, while Mercenaries are added into a pool.

 

 

 

         // By default, player's faction are set to -1, which corresponds to Mercenary
        Player Group - Pick each player in (Active Players) and do (Actions)
            Actions
                General - If (Conditions) then do (Actions) else do (Actions)
                    If
                        // If the picked player's faction (as read in bank file) is 0
                        Players:Faction[(Picked player)] == 0
                    Then
                        // Player added to team A/Lynx
                        Player Group - Add player (Picked player) to Game:Team[0]
                        // Announcing the event
                        Display Faction Message({(Name of player (Picked player)) is pledged to (Get Faction Name(Players:Faction[(Picked player)]))})
                    Else
                        // Same thing with team B/Dorian
                        General - If (Conditions) then do (Actions) else do (Actions)
                            If
                                Players:Faction[(Picked player)] == 1
                            Then
                                // Player added to team B/Dorian
                                Player Group - Add player (Picked player) to Game:Team[1]
                                Display Faction Message({(Name of player (Picked player)) is pledged to (Get Faction Name(Players:Faction[(Picked player)]))})
                            Else
                                // If at that point the player still doesn't belong
                                // anywhere, he's thrown in the Mercenary pool
                                Player Group - Add player (Picked player) to Mercenaries

 

 

 

At this point, it could be a 14v0 as well as a 1v2. The game checks if Mercenaries are numerous enough to fill the gap between factionites(?) - if not, it will progressively transfer players from team A to team B (or vice versa) until Mercenaries can fill the gap (or the gap reaches 0). At this point, it really just picks someone at random (looking into a possible system of odds according to things like Prestige or W/R, but that's not tomorrow). When this is over, if there are no Mercenaries left, the teams will be either even or have a 1-man difference.

 

Then, until there are no more Mercenaries left in the pool, Mercenaries are assigned to the team that has the least players. If both teams have an equal amount, a coin is "tossed" and decides the player's faith. This leaves no scenario where there are any Mercenaries left, and never creates any imbalance greater than 1.

 

I'm pretty sure the logic behind everything works, but I wouldn't mind some preliminary testing. Even though the event tomorrow is scheduled at 8:00PM, I'll definitely be there at 7:00PM for a final test. If it works fine, we'll have some pre-PoC action.

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> Refurbished the Portal initialization system; Reintroduced the coin toss to randomly determine the Top/Bottom teams

> Removed randomizer for bank elements

> Added matchmaking, removed the two teams in the lobby; Teams are now automatically created according to player’s Faction allegiance; Remaining players are classified as Mercenaries and are distributed in a balanced manner among the two teams

> Added a faction-related tip in the How To Play info

> Re-fixed a bug where Poc crystals would show wrong colors on Ultra settings

> Added Class count in the Class selection dialog; Displays the current number of players on your team playing each class; Tooltip displays the names of the player per class

> Repositioned the Class selection dialog to clear up space for the Matchmaker announcements

 

Changelog for 1.03, don't think I'll have the time to change anything major before tonight. The only big change besides the Matchmaker is the class count, which should show how many players on your team have picked a certain class.

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Thanks for showing up guys. We didn't reach 7v7, but we had 3 straight 6v6s (or 7v5 :>) and a 6v5. Plenty of fun for everyone involved, I hope. I've got exams coming up during the 3rd week of February so the amount of work that will go into the map might be limited until that's over. However, as discussed yesterday, we're probably going to try holding a session at a time that allows players from Singapore to play. People seemed to prefer Saturday morning at around 11AM EST (11PM SG), so that's probably what it's going to end up being, although we're still open to change at this point. This is likely to happen 2 weekends from now.

 

Here's the feedback from yesterday :


> Antigrav doesn't reactivate POCcing
> Look into adding visual effect to Minesweep
> Clout sappers have no minesweep
> Colors are still bugged for some players
> What Faction you're in needs to be clearer

> Stat screen still buggy

> Ground mines damage is too high

 

This will all be looked into. Additionally, there are some upcoming features that's I'm personally pretty psyched about. These are likely to be prioritized over new units - as much as we all want Wights and Spirits and Chimeras (really df?), more units isn't what will make people play the game. One of these features is a revamped UI for class selection, portal selection and unit selection. Basically, everything should work exactly the same, except the UI will be spacier and will display more information as a result. While a new UI doesn't exactly scream "#1 new feature NA", it's what will allow us to move forward with every feature related to Continuity and whatnot, so that's a pretty big deal.

 

Speaking of, Continuity is also one of the big things that will be worked on in upcoming patches. Right now, there's no incentive to play another game. Yes, Prestige and W/L goes up, but since it doesn't actually do anything wulus are likely to just try out another mod after their first PoC game is over. There are some suggestions on the table at the moment, feel free to add one of yours if you wish.

  • Players start with only some unit types unlocked, likely the simplest of use. Players unlock additional unit types by either spending some kind of currency (Prestige as a currency? addition of a separate currency?) or clearing a certain benchmark (x Prestige? 50 poc captures?).
  • Players can choose to unlock divisions as well as unit types. For example, you could have a choice between unlocking the Organic division vs unlocking another tier of units for every division you already unlocked.
  • Players level up divisions, which unlocks unit types.

Here are some limitations : the continuity system can't be 100% safe, so players who crack their bank file can't be any more powerful than legit players. The suggestions above all do that in some way - a player with a cracked bank file may have access to all units, his units won't be particularly stronger. Basically, we don't want to give people a big incentive to crack their file and max their stats (which I'll try to secure through triggers but it can never be 100% proof).

 

So that's that. Oh yeah, there's also a wikia that could use some love.

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peaking of, Continuity is also one of the big things that will be worked on in upcoming patches. Right now, there's no incentive to play another game. Yes, Prestige and W/L goes up, but since it doesn't actually do anything wulus are likely to just try out another mod after their first PoC game is over. There are some suggestions on the table at the moment, feel free to add one of yours if you wish.

  • Players start with only some unit types unlocked, likely the simplest of use. Players unlock additional unit types by either spending some kind of currency (Prestige as a currency? addition of a separate currency?) or clearing a certain benchmark (x Prestige? 50 poc captures?).
  • Players can choose to unlock divisions as well as unit types. For example, you could have a choice between unlocking the Organic division vs unlocking another tier of units for every division you already unlocked.
  • Players level up divisions, which unlocks unit types.

Here are some limitations : the continuity system can't be 100% safe, so players who crack their bank file can't be any more powerful than legit players. The suggestions above all do that in some way - a player with a cracked bank file may have access to all units, his units won't be particularly stronger. Basically, we don't want to give people a big incentive to crack their file and max their stats (which I'll try to secure through triggers but it can never be 100% proof).

 

So that's that. Oh yeah, there's also a wikia that could use some love.

 

I think all 3 of your bullets should be implemented.  It would definitely give you the feel of progressing in the game.  So you start at "level 1" with Aviation available and can choose 1 of the other 3 divisions to unlock.  Deciding which units are available earlier seems pretty easy.  Just use SG's Influence as a starting point.  Units with an Influence of 2 (Moths, Imps, Hawks, Pegs, etc) are available automatically.  Then for different costs, based on Influence, you can unlock more units.  We can definitely tweak that as we go so it makes more sense, though.  I mean, Apps and Phantoms needing a high Influence to unlock?  Yeah...there's a reward.  

 

If we want to get super creative, we could say that you have to unlock units for *each and every stat set*.  So you "level up" one stat set at a time and have to unlock everything for each, as you go.  I feel like Elitist should probably cost a lot less to fully unlock.  This would make balancing the cost of each unit much easier.  A Wraith should be available from the beginning on a non Clout stat, but it should be one of the highest costs when playing Clout.  Is this doable?  I'd love to start crunching some numbers to make this work.  Do we have an idea of how much prestige is gained on average per battle through our testing?  That would be infinitely helpful for figuring out a scale for these costs.

 

Finally - I WANT CHIMS AND VULTS!!! :D

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I think all 3 of your bullets should be implemented.  It would definitely give you the feel of progressing in the game.  So you start at "level 1" with Aviation available and can choose 1 of the other 3 divisions to unlock.  Deciding which units are available earlier seems pretty easy.  Just use SG's Influence as a starting point.  Units with an Influence of 2 (Moths, Imps, Hawks, Pegs, etc) are available automatically.  Then for different costs, based on Influence, you can unlock more units.  We can definitely tweak that as we go so it makes more sense, though.  I mean, Apps and Phantoms needing a high Influence to unlock?  Yeah...there's a reward. 

 

Well, our idea is to have the default unlocked units be the simplest units out of each division. It does generally overlap with SG's influence system, but not in all instances... For example under that system, I would put sappers a lot higher up the ladder and have Owls be one of the base Aviary unit. So at this point I don't think there's any value in using SG's Influence scale - we'd make up our own, balance it and go with it.

 

If we want to get super creative, we could say that you have to unlock units for *each and every stat set*.  So you "level up" one stat set at a time and have to unlock everything for each, as you go.  I feel like Elitist should probably cost a lot less to fully unlock.  This would make balancing the cost of each unit much easier.  A Wraith should be available from the beginning on a non Clout stat, but it should be one of the highest costs when playing Clout.  Is this doable?  I'd love to start crunching some numbers to make this work.  Do we have an idea of how much prestige is gained on average per battle through our testing?  That would be infinitely helpful for figuring out a scale for these costs.

 

Finally - I WANT CHIMS AND VULTS!!! :D

 

Good point, I didn't consider unlocking statset-only units... It's definitely doable. The formula for Prestige gain is : 1pt/kill + 5pt/PoC captured + 3pt/PoC stopped. Mercenaries get 60% extra prestige on a win. On a loss, non-Mercenaries only gain 50% prestige while Mercenaries gain 33% prestige. It seems to average about 40 prestige/game.

 

We're definitely going to need some number crunching at one point, we just need to settle precisely what system we're going to run with. That's Cres' department.

 

Also, once this is implemented, there will be an alternate mode, picked in the lobby, where everyone just runs max sets of everything (just like right now), for the purpose of, well, having a choice.

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Also, once this is implemented, there will be an alternate mode, picked in the lobby, where everyone just runs max sets of everything (just like right now), for the purpose of, well, having a choice.

 

I think that is a gigantic mistake.  Why would you choose to level up when you could just choose to have everything at your fingertips?  I think the grind to get everything unlocked is what will keep folks coming back at first.  As they grind, they'll get used to the gameplay and thats where the addiction comes in.  The ONLY benefit is that old SG players can come in and have an all max battle at their whim.  If we want to build a PoC community and not just a place to have old SGers come in and play every 2 weeks, we need to build the addiction.  Giving that initial sense of accomplishment as they unlock their first couple units is a necessary component, I feel.  One of my earliest SG memories is getting high enough in infantry to buy Revs (Brutes).  It was exciting, at the time.

 

Well, our idea is to have the default unlocked units be the simplest units out of each division. It does generally overlap with SG's influence system, but not in all instances... For example under that system, I would put sappers a lot higher up the ladder and have Owls be one of the base Aviary unit.

 

Yes, obviously we wouldn't just copy SG's values, that isn't what I was insinuating.  I just want to use a similar system.

 

 

Good point, I didn't consider unlocking statset-only units... It's definitely doable. The formula for Prestige gain is : 1pt/kill + 5pt/PoC captured + 3pt/PoC stopped. Mercenaries get 60% extra prestige on a win. On a loss, non-Mercenaries only gain 50% prestige while Mercenaries gain 33% prestige. It seems to average about 40 prestige/game.

 

I'm going to take that 40 prestige average and come up with an outline for a system.  Actually I'll probably take 45 prestige as the average as I expect as folks get better at POC, the average will rise.  Expect a long ass post soon.

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Quick additional thought on the prestige system.  Without any evidence to back it up, I feel like it undervalues clout.  Do we have any data on average prestige gained by stat (I forget what we call the options)?

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I think that is a gigantic mistake.  Why would you choose to level up when you could just choose to have everything at your fingertips?  I think the grind to get everything unlocked is what will keep folks coming back at first.  As they grind, they'll get used to the gameplay and thats where the addiction comes in.  The ONLY benefit is that old SG players can come in and have an all max battle at their whim.  If we want to build a PoC community and not just a place to have old SGers come in and play every 2 weeks, we need to build the addiction.  Giving that initial sense of accomplishment as they unlock their first couple units is a necessary component, I feel.  One of my earliest SG memories is getting high enough in infantry to buy Revs (Brutes).  It was exciting, at the time.

 

Funny, I'm pretty sure Cres and I had a conversation about a week ago that said pretty much the exact same thing.

 

I don't think it's a gigantic mistake, and yet I agree with everything above. The standard mode would feature all this leveling up bullshit and would be the default mode. The other mode would be chosen by the host in the lobby, likely under a dissuasive name, maybe something like "Tournament". Alternatively, the choice could be made at the beginning of the game, either by the host' choice or by having everyone vote.

 

Perhaps it's not necessary, but I don't think it's as bad of an idea as you make it out to be, especially since it's not going to be the default choice.

 

Edit : No, there's no way to keep track of Prestige gain by anything other than games played. I don't have an opinion on whether or not it undervalues clout, but judging by the number of Shocktroopers who made MVP, I don't think that's the case. Obviously not a proof of anything though.

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Ok... here's what I whipped up.  A lot of gut feelings and guess work, especially on Hybrid as I do not remember the exact stats.  I think the general scale is ok.  You can make yourself pretty useful pretty quickly if you know what you're doing.  The freebie units were just guesswork on my part and probably very wrong.  Its what made sense as I zoomed through this, looking at it now, I can see some changes, certainly.  General balance is probably pretty close as far as # of battles to unlock everything.  Totals at the bottom include the 2000 total (1000 each) required to unlock the 3rd and 4th divisions.  The numbers at the far bottom right are total battles to unlock everything.

 

I may have forgotten some units, or a variation or 2 that we plan to implement.  We can also put units into groupings like SG.  For example, you unlock moths and that gives you access to unlock levis (or the other way around).  If nothing else it gives us a starting point.

 

 

 

 

Infantry – 1000 prestige to unlock (or free if 2nd division)

Aviation – Pre-unlocked

Mobile – 1000 prestige to unlock (or free if 2nd division)

Alien – 1000 prestige to unlock (or free if 2nd division)

Misc/Support – Pre-unlocked

 

Alt builds unlock with base build?  Unsure… maybe a per case basis.  Like straight GA specs vs nuker specs or nade vs straight dmg Daeva.  Maybe those unlock separately as it’s a completely different function, whereas infil vs normal imps are the same function.

 

 

 

Infantry Units          Tac  Edu  Clt  Elt  Hyb
 
Imp                     120  150  90   70   90
Ghast                   90   120  50   0    85
Revenant (Camo)         150  150  150  90   120
Daeva (GG)              140  150  90   120  120
Daeva (Nade)            180  150  140  120  150
Banshee                 150  180  0    120  90
Spectre (GA)            0    0    0    0    0
Spectre (Nuke)          180  140  110  100  130
Wraith                  0    0    180  120  100
Shade                   150  150  150  150  150
Liche                   80   80   80   80   80
Phantom                 100  100  0    50   75
Spirit (SC)             150  150  150  150  150
Spirit (MW)             150  150  150  150  150
Spirit (GG set)         0    120  0    0    0
Apparition              120  120  70   70   70
Mephit                  100  100  200  50   50
Virus                   100  100  0    0    0
Sapper                  300  280  280  220  250
Wight (GG)              280  320  120  120  180
Wight (V)               200  220  180  180  180
 
Aviation Units          Tac  Edu  Clt  Elt  Hyb
 
Hawk                    0    0    0    0    0
Owl                     120  100  80   70   100
Falcon                  150  150  90   80   100
Pelican                 100  90   70   80   80
War Pigeon              300  250  200  170  170
Condor                  120  120  120  120  120
Eagle                   0    0    0    0    0
Albatross               300  280  280  220  250
Roc                     0    0    200  150  180
Phoenix                 220  230  100  150  200
Vulture                 270  300  220  190  230
 
                                 
 
Mobile Units            Tac  Edu  Clt  Elt  Hyb
 
Behemoth                100  150  300  220  250
Chimera                 150  160  200  140  180
Leviathan               200  200  280  150  180
Arbalest                240  280  150  150  200
Ballista                200  220  80   80   150
Trebuchet               220  240  130  110  150
Pegasus                 0    0    0    0    0
Gryphon                 100  120  80   60   70
Orbus (phase)           140  140  180  140  170
Orbus (shield)          110  100  120  0    120
Manticore               0    0    0    0    0
Hydra                   120  100  200  90   120
Volte (emp)             120  120  120  110  120
Triage                  80   80   80   80   80
Mantlet                 80   80   180  80   80
 
Alien Units             Tac  Edu  Clt  Elt  Hyb
 
Oizys                   180  180  140  150  170
Poda                    80   80   150  100  120
Tyr                     120  130  140  80   100
Crudgin                 0    0    0    0    0
Scave/Knell             80   80   240  200  220       
Momos                   0    0    0    0    0         
Abom (Beefy)            190  200  280  180  200       
Quorg (EQ?)             150  100  130  70   110       
Jorias                  200  N/A  N/A  N/A  N/A       
Lithubik                180  140  120  80   110       
 
Total pres              7360 7210 6730 5380 6440 
Battles to max (40)     234  230  218  184  211       1078
Battles to max (45)     208  204  194  164  187       958

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Hmm, that's a lot of battles to max each class. Good starting point though. I'd have Ghasts, Shades, Moths, Manticores, Pelicans/Eagles and Owls as starting units. Organics is weird, I can see them not having any free starting unit.

 

As for alternate units, well, eeeeeh. I honestly still don't know what's going to happen with them. I'm hoping the UI overhaul will give us enough room to just distribute alt builds/support throughout their appropriate divisions and just remove the misc category altogether.

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I tried to make it so that you could unlock a new unit every 2-3 battles if you wanted to, or save up after 5-6 battles and unlock a really good unit.  If that seems excessive, we can cut the #'s back by about 50%.

 

As far as what units are available at the start... I think it should be different for each stat.  Why give shocktroopers one of its best poccers right out of the gate?  Yeah, they should have something that can poc (cores?), but not one of the top poccers in the game.

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I tried to make it so that you could unlock a new unit every 2-3 battles if you wanted to, or save up after 5-6 battles and unlock a really good unit.  If that seems excessive, we can cut the #'s back by about 50%.

 

As far as what units are available at the start... I think it should be different for each stat.  Why give shocktroopers one of its best poccers right out of the gate?  Yeah, they should have something that can poc (cores?), but not one of the top poccers in the game.

 

Because Behemoths are pretty much the simplest unit in the game, and if that's our criteria for initial units then it makes no sense that Moths aren't free.

 

 

I'm ok with not having 77 Taiwanese like our Event every time we need actual exposure.

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Because Behemoths are pretty much the simplest unit in the game, and if that's our criteria for initial units then it makes no sense that Moths aren't free.

 

I don't think that should be the criteria, personally.

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Why would you choose to level up when you could just choose to have everything at your fingertips?

I agree entirely. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot here. A character advancement system is undermined with even a small experience point exploit. Having a toggle that simply removes it is ridiculous, default choice or not. Plus, it fragments the community.

 

Aviation – Pre-unlocked

I don't like the idea of only 1 division being open by default. Give the newbs a few options, don't make them feel crippled, just limited.

If you really want to go this way, some other division should be default. Newbs need to learn how to poc.

 

Because Behemoths are pretty much the simplest unit in the game, and if that's our criteria for initial units then it makes no sense that Moths aren't free.

I entirely agree with this idea.

RiceJ, the goal here is to limit options, not power. New players are going to get stomped hard enough because they don't know the game. Players will get significantly better as they play the game, regardless of any progression system, so using it to straight up make the worst players even worse serves no purpose.

This way, the unlock system can be used as a way of slowly introducing otherwise overwhelming content without hamstringing new players. In fact, this goal should be outright stated somewhere publicly. People like to be reassured that they're not starting with an unfair disadvantage.

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 don't like the idea of only 1 division being open by default. Give the newbs a few options, don't make them feel crippled, just limited.

If you really want to go this way, some other division should be default. Newbs need to learn how to poc.

 

I entirely agree with this idea.

RiceJ, the goal here is to limit options, not power. New players are going to get stomped hard enough because they don't know the game. Players will get significantly better as they play the game, regardless of any progression system, so using it to straight up make the worst players even worse serves no purpose.

This way, the unlock system can be used as a way of slowly introducing otherwise overwhelming content without hamstringing new players. In fact, this goal should be outright stated somewhere publicly. People like to be reassured that they're not starting with an unfair disadvantage.

 

I believe my idea was that Avi is available from the get-go and one more division is available to unlock for free (users' choice).  If I didn't articulate that I apologize.

 

As for the other portion.  I'm fine with whatever.

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Alternatively, the system could be a hybrid. Units are hard-locked by division levels - more complex units can't be unlocked until the player reaches a certain level in the appropriate division. When a player's level is high enough to to unlock a certain unit, it becomes soft-locked - the player can choose to unlock that unit by spending a certain amount of prestige/currency.

 

This way, a unit's division level requirement would scale based upon that unit's complexity, while its actual cost to unlock would scale with the unit's perceived strength (or whatever factor we deem it to be). For example, Apparitions would be cheap, but would require a high division level while Wraiths would be relatively expensive, while having no division level requirement.

 

Have players start with a fixed amount of currency (this is one of the reason I prefer having a currency separated from prestige - it's a lot easier to regulate and manipulate). Have a couple of units be freebies, just so the player doesn't run out of units. Say Shades, Pegasus/Gryphons, Pelicans/Eagles and Ubiks. With the currency given to the player, they can either unlock one very strong unit (Behemoth, Ghast) or unlock a couple of less crucial units (Manticores, Owls, Momos). Unlocking units could be done before the game or after the game, through the new UI. This implies a longer waiting time before the game (it's already too short imo, not enough time for text-based coordination, not enough time for newbies to know what the fuck they're supposed to be doing)... Something around 90 seconds sounds appropriate.

 

As for the currency, it can scale off directly of prestige meaning all the math would basically stay the same. It's also a lot easier to catch bank crackers (I like that term) that way, since we can pinpoint exactly how much prestige one needs to have in order to unlock whatever it is he has unlocked. The advantage of successfully cracking a bank would still only be more units which doesn't make the actual player stronger.

 

Food for thought.

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