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Tender Peaches

The Point of Contention Thread

What are your usual availabilities for the timeslots below? (all times EST)  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Weekdays Evenings : 7PM - 10PM (excluding Fridays)

    • Generally available
      13
    • Depends on the day
      5
    • Generally unavailable
      2
  2. 2. Saturday Mornings : 10AM - Noon

    • Generally available
      8
    • Sometimes available
      9
    • Generally unavailable
      3
  3. 3. Saturday Evenings : 8PM - 10PM

    • Generally available
      10
    • Sometimes available
      5
    • Generally unavailable
      5
  4. 4. Sunday Mornings : 10AM - Noon

    • Generally available
      9
    • Sometimes available
      6
    • Generally unavailable
      5
  5. 5. Sunday Nights : 8PM - 10PM

    • Generally available
      14
    • Sometimes available
      3
    • Generally unavailable
      3


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So, I think the problem for mines doing too much damage is that when they explode, they tag everyone in the blast radius with AoE damage. Meaning a stack of 10 knells running through a single mine will actually take 10 mines' worth of damage to the face.

 

Damn.

 

Edit : Yep. Confirmed. Hoping it's not too much of a pain to fix, mines are a bitch.

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So all 10 knells activate the mine simultaneously, causing them to all take damage from the mine they set off and all the others?

 

Thats...pretty funny.  Can you just add a flag to a mine so it can't be set off more than once (I have no idea how the mines are set up, just taking a while stab at it).

 

Is the code for the mod online somewhere?  I'd be interested in poking around with it some time.

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It's available on demand. Since you demanded, I'll send it to you in PM.

 

I'd say Sappers are one of the most complex units to be controlled through Data alone (as opposed to Triggers), if not the most complex.

 

To understand how Sappers work, you need to understand the basic types of effect they use. A Set effect is an effect that does multiple effects at once, but on its own it doesn't do anything. A Switch effect is an effect that checks if certain conditions are true - if they are, it calls upon a specific effect, if not it checks other conditions. A Search Area effect is pretty self-explanatory - it searches an area around a point and casts the specified effect on any unit in that area that matches the search filters (for example Ground, Enemy, Not Anti-Grav, etc.). If you're still following, you probably noticed that none of these effects actually do anything on their own, they basically just call other effects. As I'll explain below, this is how complex units such as Sappers can be handled entirely without Triggers.

 

Alright, so the way Sappers lay mines is unimportant so I'll skip it. Let's go straight to how mines explode.

 

Every mine in the game has a Mine Target Search behavior (a behavior is just a fancy way of saying buff). Every 0.1 seconds, every single mine on the map calls upon the Mine Search Search Area effect. This effect is where the mine checks whether or not it needs to blow up, so the Search Filters are set to require Ground and Enemy while excluding Summoned units (Summoned is the flag for anti-grav), Self and other shit we don't want mines to fuck with. Whenever a target meets these criteria, it casts the Mine Explosion Set Set effect. As I'm writing this, I realize this might be the cause of the bug, since logically the effect will be cast on the unit found by Mine Search rather than the mine itself... Carrying on.

 

Mine Explosion Set calls Mine Suicide and Mine Explosion Switch. Mine Suicide's effect is fairly obvious, it self-destructs the mine by hitting it for 1 damage (mines have 1 HP). This in itself doesn't do anything to anything that isn't the mine. Mine Explosion Switch checks what type of mine "cast" the effect, and then picks the appropriate effect accordingly. Every type of mine (including chem and EMP) undergoes the same process (from Mine Search to now), but this is where they all split up. If for example the triggering mine is a "TL80" mine, used by Shocktroopers, then it calls the Burst Mine Damage effect. Damage effects are what trigger damage for pretty much every unit in the game, and mines are no different. Up until now, the Damage effects of mines had an Search: Area value of 360° with a radius of 0.8, which indicates the Damage's splash value. The radius is a circle around the Target: Impact Location value, which I've always assumed to be the mine itself but I'm pretty sure now that it's actually the unit that initially triggered the mine to blow up.

 

I assumed the Search: Area was the issue, so I removed it and tested it, with the only noticeable effect that no damage was done to anything anymore. The mine just blows up and nothing is hurt. I'm totally down for this to be a thing IRL, but that's not our objective here. I then added a Search Area effect that would simply distribute the Damage effect among any viable targets within the blast zone. The new effect, let's call it Burst Mine Search, is called upon from the Mine Explosion Switch directly. Still no damage done to anything (wtf???).

 

I'm pretty sure the problem lies within the Mine Search effect. The way it's designed now, the mine casts the effect upon the targeted unit rather than upon itself (which would explain why the explosions always happen under the unit that triggers the mine rather than the mine's actual location). I'll see if changing Target: Impact Location fixes anything. I'll be done for the night regardless of if it works, but feel free to test it out on your own.

 

Type "@sap" to have a Sapper spawn around the A3 poc and lay down a mine. If you want to change how many sappers spawn and whatnot, the Trigger is located under Global -> Dev -> Dev:Sapper.

 

Also, most Triggers are commented and whatnot. I made it so that anyone who really wanted could actually understand what happens in every Trigger even with little to no experience with the Galaxy Editor. It's a bit messy, but considering the scope of the map I'm pretty sure it could be a lot, lot worse.

 

Edit : Shit, still no damage. Oh well, I'll look into it tomorrow.

 

Edit 2 : Pinpointed the problem. When a Mine searches for a target, it'll call the Mine Explosion Set effect x times if x units are found in the Search Area at once. It's actually pretty basic and I don't know how I couldn't have seen it earlier. Oh well.

 

Edit 3 : Fixed! The only thing that needed to be changed was the Search: Areas+ field of the Mine Search effect. Maximum Value was at -1 (no maximum), it needed to be at 1. Obviously this means we won't change the damage values for mines, since we've been playing with bugged mines all along. Lol.

 

Edit 4 : Oh yeah, turns out that both Tactician and Universalist mines always did double damage regardless of the situation. gg

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Did a little solo testing with an AI.  Looks like if you capture pocs before 12:00, its still affecting the score.  I had the other guy down by 100 and I only capped 2.

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Yep. It's easily adjustable in case we decide to change it.

 

Also holy shit fuck sappers.

 

> Added Minesweep ability to Shocktrooper and Elitist Sappers

> Fixed a bug where Mines and Airmines did damage proportional to the number of units that were in its blast radius

> Mines’ explosion are now correctly located at the position of the detonated Mine rather than the unit which triggered the explosion

> Fixed a bug where Tactician and Universalist Sappers’ mines would deal too much damage

> Added a visual cue when Minesweeper removes a mine

> Fixed a bug where Minesweeping would sometimes register mine kills as unit kills

 

I'm sure they're still bugged somehow.

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Been away from the net a couple days, I see I missed some interesting discussion...

 

I'm sold by the anti-regi battle arguments, so none of that.

 

I kind of liked the notion that you'd multiply your number of options by unlocking a class with all your current units or unlocking a unit for all your current classes, but I can see the wisdom in giving more things to grind and Rice's early math seems pretty solid so I can get behind that...

 

The early unlocks are definitely based on unit complexity for exactly the reasons that MZ mentioned. Specifically the point about not overwhelming the player. It's the main reason we have a hard time getting non SG players to play and one of the main factors behind SG's demise. Playing SG effectively requires an understanding of the relation between all the unit types and when you don't know any of the 60, where do you begin? Limiting the choices to a few effective but simple units gives you a starting point which only gets further layered as you select your next options one by one. For later purchase, unit power probably factors in along with complexity.

 

My current thoughts for class unlock is that we allow the player to select any first class for free, except elitist, which is locked. Then every other class is the same amount, except for elitist which costs half of what the others cost. Elitist units would also cost half (or whatever reduced proportion) of the unit cost of other classes.

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My current thoughts for class unlock is that we allow the player to select any first class for free, except elitist, which is locked. Then every other class is the same amount, except for elitist which costs half of what the others cost. Elitist units would also cost half (or whatever reduced proportion) of the unit cost of other classes.

 

I don't think you should reduce the price of Elitist. A newbie who spends his first purchase on something he find to be a piece of crap will be quite frustrated. I understand that you want to make the crappy units easier to get, but doing so would go against the logic you're already following with complexity-based tiers for units.

 

Elitist has (borderline) playable squads that you can only pick out if you have a very thorough understanding of SG units and their relative capacity for utilizing high end stats. If you want to encourage newbies to use the units they're most likely to understand, incentivizing them to unlock a class that is only useful for very specific squads, that they have no context for nor chance of understanding the reasoning behind, is a very bad idea.

 

I'll also again recommend removing Elitist altogether, or redoing the unit stats with 20 more points for the character.

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We're not going to change the stats of Elitist. Adding one unit would fuck up the balance and put Shocktroopers in an iffy spot. Adding Edu/Clout/MA would require relabbing all the units, which is definitely not going to happen.

 

Cres suggested we consider the Elitist as a more rewarding class, I can get behind that. Let the newbies know it's more challenging, give out awards (prestige bonus?) for playing Elitist, etc.

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The problem is that it's a teamgame. Playing Elitist would then be equivalent to using nonmaxed units the entire match (fuck the team, I want to level! Or more prestige, in this case).

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So then that makes you a bad teamplayer, which can be achieved in countless other ways.

 

Also, Prestige bonus doesn't mean gaining Prestige faster than other classes. Elitists gain less Prestige by default because they're useless, a finely tuned bonus would simply put their prestige gain on par with other classes.

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Anyway, we're not married to the idea, so we're still open to taking it in any direction. I want to compensate for the objectively weaker power of the class without scrapping the class altogether or relabbing anything. I considered bumping it straight to 7 units instead of 6 but then it makes shocktrooper comparatively weak, and I don't know that shocktrooper should be buffed in relation to the other builds, so...

 

A tricky one for sure!

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We could look at the #s with a 10-15% damage, hp, and/or armor buff.  10% additional of any or all of those wouldn't make up a full extra unit (alleviating your concern re: shocktrooper).

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Buffing the units themselves is not an avenue we'd like to take unless we have no other choice. It's requires some tedious work on stuff like mines, and it messes around with unit balance which is something we've been pretty successful at avoiding so far.

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So then that makes you a bad teamplayer, which can be achieved in countless other ways.

Yes, but (wisely) none of those ways are actively encouraged by the game mechanics.

 

I know that a lot of time was spent labbing and planning for the Elitist, and that it would suck for all that to have been for nothing. But I think we can agree that sometimes you have to make the hard choices for the good of the game, and in this case, just let the Elitist die. Maybe it could be just for now, until a community develops, and people are ready to understand the very specific potential benefits of the build.

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You could also play with respawn timers or remove unit locking.  FPS mechanics :wub:

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We'll figure something out.

 

UI is completely revamped at this point. Should look quite different next week saturday 22nd at 11:00 AM EST//11:00PM SGtz (time not final yet) damn sounds like fun I'll be there

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That is awesome. We had a couple of sounds but not the music. I wonder how much of it we could fit in the map. Thanks x1000!

 

Also welcome to the forums. Did you play PoC yet?

 

Edit : Oh my god track 1 is bringing on nostalgia, hard. I'm definitely putting this on my ipod.

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.. oh. Well, damn.

 

Now that you ask though, there are a couple of signature sounds that I could implement rather easily. Off the top of my head :

 

> Arbalest Weapon

> Arbalest Deploy/Undeploy

> Sappers Mining

> Albatross Mining

 

I'm sure there are more. Most weapons sounds are adequately covered by SC2's generic sounds, but there's nothing stopping us from using SG's sounds (Behemoth, Machine guns, Owls missiles come to mind). The 4 listed above would be a great start though.

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