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So in general do people not support enforcing immigration?

 

Nearly everyone supports enforcing illegal immigration. The problems with this bill are:

 

1. It's by a state. If other states follow suit by creating their own laws and penalties and systems of apprehension, then you could have patchwork enforcement of immigration across various states, leading to bad things.

2. It allows police to apprehend and ask for ID papers of anyone they have "reasonable suspicion" is an illegal immigrant. Given that there are no behaviors which makes one appear to be illegal (beyond running from the police or being seen crossing the border), its pretty much guaranteed that racial profiling will take place given that its Arizona. The bill prohibits racial profiling, but how a policeman is supposed to identify who is illegal on sight scares many people into thinking racial profiling is basically required.

3. As a result of 2, assuming the bill is uniformly enforced without prejudice to race, then every person who enters the state will have to have ID on them at all times. US citizens, when asked to present ID by police, can simply say "I'm a US citizen, and I decline to show it" and under Federal law are protected by unlawful search and seizure. The police legally have to take them at their word, and cannot press the issue.

 

So, tl;dr: Opens the possibility of disorganized enforcement, opens strong possibility for racial profiling, and is easily defeated by a gigantic loophole.

 

What is required on this issue is federal enforcement of existing statutes, combined with immigration reform at large. This Arizona thing is a knee-jerk reaction to that rancher whose death is being grandstanded upon by its conservatives up for re-election and will do more harm than good.

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Nearly everyone supports enforcing illegal immigration. The problems with this bill are:

 

1. It's by a state. If other states follow suit by creating their own laws and penalties and systems of apprehension, then you could have patchwork enforcement of immigration across various states, leading to bad things.

2. It allows police to apprehend and ask for ID papers of anyone they have "reasonable suspicion" is an illegal immigrant. Given that there are no behaviors which makes one appear to be illegal (beyond running from the police or being seen crossing the border), its pretty much guaranteed that racial profiling will take place given that its Arizona. The bill prohibits racial profiling, but how a policeman is supposed to identify who is illegal on sight scares many people into thinking racial profiling is basically required.

3. As a result of 2, assuming the bill is uniformly enforced without prejudice to race, then every person who enters the state will have to have ID on them at all times. US citizens, when asked to present ID by police, can simply say "I'm a US citizen, and I decline to show it" and under Federal law are protected by unlawful search and seizure. The police legally have to take them at their word, and cannot press the issue.

 

So, tl;dr: Opens the possibility of disorganized enforcement, opens strong possibility for racial profiling, and is easily defeated by a gigantic loophole.

 

What is required on this issue is federal enforcement of existing statutes, combined with immigration reform at large. This Arizona thing is a knee-jerk reaction to that rancher whose death is being grandstanded upon by its conservatives up for re-election and will do more harm than good.

 

We don't need reform we need the current laws enforced.

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We don't need reform we need the current laws enforced.

 

We need the laws enforced, but we also need a way to deal with the estimated 20 million illegal people already in the country. Can't just go round them up and ship them off.

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We need the laws enforced, but we also need a way to deal with the estimated 20 million illegal people already in the country. Can't just go round them up and ship them off.

 

Why not? I'd prefer that to making them legal citizens or giving them the right to vote.

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Why not? I'd prefer that to making them legal citizens or giving them the right to vote.

 

The logistical and civil rights difficulties of going around the country, picking up 20 million illegals and their families, and shipping them back to Mexico. In addition, at this point they are a very important part of our economy. The only reason they're a drain is because they don't pay taxes. Get them to pay taxes in return for some sort of legality for their presence in America, and you solve the problem.

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Except validating their illegally coming to this country by being ok with it doesn't promote not illegally crossing the borders. What's the unemployment rate at right now? I don't see those jobs not being filled, I think the problem would come when those jobs get filled by legal citizens who can't be paid cash under the table for less than minimum wage.

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They do pay taxes... sales tax and rental tax. It actually adds up to a significant sum of money, already. To say that they don't pay taxes is pretty much a lie.

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The way I see this going down is that police will only use the new law when they are already detaining somebody for another reason and have RAS the person is illegal. Also, if you apply for government assistance in AZ, you'll have to show proof of citizenship.

 

Soo... get pulled over, and your license comes up as a no-hit from another state? They might look at you more carefully. Or, if you can't prove you're a citizen, you no longer get government aid.

 

States are passing such laws because the Federal government has been negligent in it's duty to address the issue.

 

As for the 20 million - Amnesty isn't the answer. You can't round up every single one overnight, but you sure as heck can deport the ones that you catch breaking other laws.

 

What cracks me up are the media headlines, many of which are a variant of "AZ makes it a crime to be an illegal alien". Are we so far gone into Orwellian doublespeak that we no longer consider something 'illegal' to be a crime?

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I'd really just rather just make them pay all the taxes citizens do, and take DNA/fingerprint records of any illegal aliens that have committed crimes here, and establish a deal with Mexico for them to be prosecuted there.

 

Anyone who commits a crime, and is on record as an illegal alien here should be set on a higher bail for being a repeat offender of illegal immigration.

 

The vast majority of them won't be able to pay the bail, and the money from those who can should cover for the amount of money used to house those who can't.

 

Also, I really don't have a problem with illegal immigrants, especially if they've actually managed to come here and make a good living for themselves. There should definitely be penalties to encourage legal immigration, but really, no one who only speaks Spanish and can't do math isn't going to be allowed in as a legal immigrant. But if they want to come to the USA and try to be productive, I think we shouldn't be going around trying to round them up.

 

It's late and I'm not sure if this is coherent at all, but yeah.

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They do pay taxes... sales tax and rental tax. It actually adds up to a significant sum of money, already. To say that they don't pay taxes is pretty much a lie.

 

They don't pay income, social security, or medicare tax. All of which are the causes of drain which they are on the economy. State tax is miniscule compared to the taxes they'd pay if they were in the system.

 

The way I see this going down is that police will only use the new law when they are already detaining somebody for another reason and have RAS the person is illegal. Also, if you apply for government assistance in AZ, you'll have to show proof of citizenship.

 

Methinks you have too much faith in the system, sir. Your opinion is that cops will only tack on illegal immigration to people who have already committed crimes - but the law doesn't say that. The law gives police permission to pull over anyone with "reasonable suspicion". It requires no preceding break of the law.

 

Soo... get pulled over, and your license comes up as a no-hit from another state? They might look at you more carefully. Or, if you can't prove you're a citizen, you no longer get government aid.

 

Or you're in AZ with a friend, lost your wallet, and get detained for 12 hours until they can prove by fingerprints you're a legal citizen. Nice. Also you're totally ignoring the loophole by which citizens can refuse to give ID under federal statutes of lawful search and seizure.

 

States are passing such laws because the Federal government has been negligent in it's duty to address the issue.

 

It's state, singular, but beyond that yes I agree with you. But I don't see a state doing something completely retarded as justified by a bad enforcement of federal law. They should petition to get the feds to do their job, in more earnest: hell, one of their senators was running for president last year. Not like they don't have clout.

 

As for the 20 million - Amnesty isn't the answer. You can't round up every single one overnight, but you sure as heck can deport the ones that you catch breaking other laws.

 

Who said amnesty? All I said was make them pay taxes. At this point, we ahve to realize two things:

1. there are millions of people here illegally who aren't paying their share of taxes, and are therefore a burden

2. We can't deport all, or even a majority, of them without an absurd cost in terms of logistics and time spent by law enforcement.

 

What cracks me up are the media headlines, many of which are a variant of "AZ makes it a crime to be an illegal alien". Are we so far gone into Orwellian doublespeak that we no longer consider something 'illegal' to be a crime?

 

Those are stupid. The headline would better read "AZ makes it a crime to not have papers."

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IN my opinion, as long as an immigrant of any type is putting forth an effort to contribute to the country or is in process of citizenship, then they should be helped in obtaining that citizenship. The ones that are just mooching off of everything because it is easier to take money from the US government and spend it in their own country should be ejected. When that illegal immigrant rally happened a few years back I got to see first hand the reaction of someone who had legally gotten his citizenship and was Spanish himself. I thought he was going to throw a table through the TV he was so pissed off about his own country man holding out their hands and giving nothing back. Not to mention all the effort he went through to do it legally.

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Methinks you have too much faith in the system, sir. Your opinion is that cops will only tack on illegal immigration to people who have already committed crimes - but the law doesn't say that. The law gives police permission to pull over anyone with "reasonable suspicion". It requires no preceding break of the law.

 

LEOs have been dealing with the Reasonable Articulable Suspicion guidelines since 1968 (see: Terry vs. Ohio).

 

Or you're in AZ with a friend, lost your wallet, and get detained for 12 hours until they can prove by fingerprints you're a legal citizen. Nice.

 

Not going to happen. RAS guidelines dictate that they have to have a reasonable, explainable reason why they believe that you have committed, or are about to commit, a crime; they have to detain you for a reasonable amount of time, and unless they arrest you, they have to do it within close proximity to where they encountered you.

 

Also you're totally ignoring the loophole by which citizens can refuse to give ID under federal statutes of lawful search and seizure.

 

Sure, unless, for example, you're driving, or the LEO has RAS that you've committed or are about to commit a crime. Say, drunk in public, or vagrancy.

 

One piece of advice, absolutely free of charge, and worth every penny. Don't give a LEO a fake name when you're refusing to hand over your ID. It will not help you.

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But Fahr, the whole purpose of the law is to give officers the power to arrest people who they have RAS of being illegal. It doesn't say that they have to commit another crime first. Assuming its not applied racially (which is a generous assumption on my part), they could detain literally anyone doing anything as long as they can make up a plausible reason for doing so.

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But Fahr, the whole purpose of the law is to give officers the power to verify the citizenship status who they have RAS of being illegal.

 

Fixed.

 

they could detain literally anyone doing anything as long as they can make up a plausible reason for doing so.

 

When you use the word 'detain', what you you mean?

 

Also, it's reasonable, not plausible. Words have meaning, especially when they're backed up by decades of case law founded on Supreme Court rulings.

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But Fahr, the whole purpose of the law is to give officers the power to arrest people who they have RAS of being illegal. It doesn't say that they have to commit another crime first. Assuming its not applied racially (which is a generous assumption on my part), they could detain literally anyone doing anything as long as they can make up a plausible reason for doing so.

 

So, instead of arguing with your belief of what the law says, I decided to actually read it.

 

Link to PDF of AZ Law 2010 SB1070

 

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373©.

 

(CAPS in original; additional emphasis mine)

 

I see nothing about actually arresting people based on RAS. Actually, a police officer CAN'T legally arrest somebody on RAS alone. They'd have to have probable cause, which has a higher evidentiary standard than RAS.

 

Oh, look... further down in the bill, it actually spells out the PC requirement:

 

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

 

And before anybody makes a fool of themselves by chasing after the 'without a warrant' red herring, I'll point out that LEOs do not need a warrant to arrest you.

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For the record many illegal immigrants do pay social security, medicare, and income taxes, its just rarely traceable to them because they're using assumed or fake identities and social security numbers that belong to other people.

 

The reason immigration is even an issue is because of you guessed it... marijuana.

Legalize drugs and eliminate violence along the border you will see many head back, then help Mexico to more efficiently use the vast natural resources they have and see what happens.

 

BTW Way to go AZ on already having an effect on immigration!

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FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373©.

 

All that says is that police have the option of checking papers of anyone they have reasonable suspicion of being illegal. If they are illegal, they can then be arrested, as per the second quote, which was:

 

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

 

This part says that if the person committed a public offense worthy of deportation, then the policeman can arrest. But being illegal is itself a public offense for which the penalty is deportation. But so is "any public offense," which includes jaywalking and loitering and completely insignificant crime you can think of.

 

As for PC vs RAS, I don't know what the difference between the two is, but this seems pretty clear.

 

Also, I'm reading the law and its actually worse than I've been reading on the news. It goes beyond RAS; it basically gives police the ability to check the ID of any person, anytime. And given how US citizens can refuse to give ID, it sounds like a massive fuckup waiting to happen. If I lived in AZ and I was questioned you can be sure I'd never show ID unless I was arrested.

 

NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A PEACE OFFICER MAY LAWFULLY STOP ANY PERSON WHO IS OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE OFFICER HAS REASONABLE SUSPICION TO BELIEVE THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW AND THIS SECTION.

 

So the officer doesn't have to observe the person committing a violation, he merely needs to suspect a violation took place.

 

IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR AN OCCUPANT OF A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS STOPPED ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY TO ATTEMPT TO HIRE OR HIRE AND PICK UP PASSENGERS FOR WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.

IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON TO ENTER A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS STOPPED ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY IN ORDER TO BE HIRED BY AN OCCUPANT OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE AND TO BE TRANSPORTED TO WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.

IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES AND WHO IS AN UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN TO KNOWINGLY APPLY FOR WORK, SOLICIT WORK IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR PERFORM WORK AS AN EMPLOYEE OR INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR IN THIS STATE.

 

"SOLICIT" MEANS VERBAL OR NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION BY A GESTURE OR A NOD THAT WOULD INDICATE TO A REASONABLE PERSON THAT A PERSON IS WILLING TO BE EMPLOYED.

 

So, any person who appears to a "reasonable person" (the officer) to be soliticing work is engaged in possibly-illegal behavior. That means an officer, for practically any reason (a gesture or fucking nod? lol), can check the ID of any loiterer or person standing on a sidewalk he comes across in the state of Arizona. This part is downright stupid.

 

A peace officer shall cause the removal and either immobilization or impoundment of a vehicle if the peace officer determines that a person is driving the vehicle while any of the following applies:

4. THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF A CRIMINAL OFFENSE AND IS TRANSPORTING, MOVING, CONCEALING, HARBORING OR SHIELDING OR ATTEMPTING TO TRANSPORT, MOVE, CONCEAL, HARBOR OR SHIELD AN ALIEN IN THIS STATE IN A VEHICLE IF THE PERSON KNOWS OR RECKLESSLY DISREGARDS THE FACT THAT THE ALIEN HAS COME TO, HAS ENTERED OR REMAINS IN THE UNITED STATES IN VIOLATION OF LAW.

 

So you can move illegals around just as long as you don't ask them if they're legal? But if you do ask them and you get pulled over, you're boned? lol. Just don't ask! Of course, if you picked them up off the street and potentially infringed on the flow of traffic, that's reasonable suspicion as well.

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