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AZ immigration

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The little Indian guy at 7-11 has the right to ask you for ID, why not a Cop?

 

Anybody can ask you for ID. That doesn't mean you have to comply. If you say 'no' to the guy at the stop-and-rob, the worst thing that can happen is he won't sell you the beer for the 16-year old kids outside.

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The logistical and civil rights difficulties of going around the country, picking up 20 million illegals and their families, and shipping them back to Mexico. In addition, at this point they are a very important part of our economy. The only reason they're a drain is because they don't pay taxes. Get them to pay taxes in return for some sort of legality for their presence in America, and you solve the problem.

People seem to be assuming only Mexicans enter our country on a daily basis. What about all the immigrants that enter Miami or the people from Europe or the Asians on the West coast?

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Anybody can ask you for ID. That doesn't mean you have to comply. If you say 'no' to the guy at the stop-and-rob, the worst thing that can happen is he won't sell you the beer for the 16-year old kids outside.

 

I don't even get carded anymore anyway....it shows.

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People seem to be assuming only Mexicans enter our country on a daily basis.

 

This is certainly the position that people who oppose the AZ law seem to take - that it's only going to be applied to Mexicans, and is therefore racist. I wonder, what does that say about them? Do they themselves see every issue through a racist prism, and therefore impute racism to their political opponents? (i.e. classic projection) Or is it just mental laziness on their part? That is, it's easier and more effective to resort to ad hominem attacks (especially when complicit media repeats them for you) than to actually consider and logically refute the arguments of the other side.

 

Or is it something else entirely?

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People seem to be assuming only Mexicans enter our country on a daily basis. What about all the immigrants that enter Miami or the people from Europe or the Asians on the West coast?

 

This bill is in Arizona, whose illegal population is by a large margin Latino, and which is particularly aimed at stereotypical Latino illegal immigrant habits - namely, day laborers. I quoted the relevant portions in a post earlier. As for the overall percentage of illegal immigrants in the US, it is predominantly Latinos coming in from mexico simply due to the ease of entry. And deporting those people would be the cheapest; even if we did have huge numbers of Asian or European illegals they would simply increase the cost of "round them up and ship them home."

 

This is certainly the position that people who oppose the AZ law seem to take - that it's only going to be applied to Mexicans, and is therefore racist. I wonder, what does that say about them? Do they themselves see every issue through a racist prism, and therefore impute racism to their political opponents? (i.e. classic projection) Or is it just mental laziness on their part? That is, it's easier and more effective to resort to ad hominem attacks (especially when complicit media repeats them for you) than to actually consider and logically refute the arguments of the other side.

Or is it something else entirely?

 

As I said, if its applied equally across the board then every person in AZ will have to be asked for ID when suspected of a crime or in one of those scenarios I quoted, scenarios which are incredibly loose and allow for the ID'ing of practically anyone. It won't be equally applied because there's too many people. The police will look for things which are typical of illegal immigrants - and in Arizona, most illegal immigrants are dark-skinned Latinos, so they're going to end up looking for that whether you legislate against it or not. Put it this way. If you're a cop in Arizona after this law goes into effect and you see two vans stuffed full of people, both speeding, simultaneously drive by. One is full of white people and one is full of darker-skinned Latinos. Which one are you more likely to think holds illegal immigrants, and which one are you then more likely to pull over?

 

The estimate by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) issued in February 2003 put the number of resident illegal immigrants at seven million (as of Jan. 2000), 4.8 million of whom were Mexican and 2.2 million of whom resided in California.

 

http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16859&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1007

 

i also hate quoting wikipedia, but since it has a source:

 

The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 11 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, in 2005, 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico; 24% were from other Latin American countries, primarily from Central America;[3] 9% were from Asia; 6% were from Europe; and 4% were from the rest of the world.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

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To be completely honest Fahr I'm surprised you are backing this bill. As much as I love the idea and thought behind it (I oppose illegal immigration and support building a big fucking wall), this is a gross infringement on basic freedoms for US Citizens. I'm gonna throw out slippery slope - but this is fucking terrible.

 

BTW, I was out West a few days ago. Did you know they have a border checkpoint between Nevada and California? They actually stop you and ask if you have any fruit - and if you do they take them away.

 

So a US citizen cannot freely transport personal property across state lines? I could swear there was something in the US Constitution about that....

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To be completely honest Fahr I'm surprised you are backing this bill. As much as I love the idea and thought behind it (I oppose illegal immigration and support building a big fucking wall), this is a gross infringement on basic freedoms for US Citizens. I'm gonna throw out slippery slope - but this is fucking terrible.

 

I still don't see where this bill encourages racial profiling. I think people are assuming cops are dirty and will bend and break the laws and use them as an excuse. This law doesn't say you can arrest someone for looking like an illegal immigrant: read--looking Hispanic.

 

What it says if someone is engaging in activities that would infer illegal immigration, they can be checked lawfully.

 

You know, standing around looking for under the table work, working in a factory with other illegals, jumping across a boarder fence, running away from a police officer.

 

Pretty much nothing new, it is just a bit more succinct.

 

Also, refusing to provide ID to a police officer is acceptable if you have committed no infraction of the law. If an officer has pulled you over for any possible traffic violation or public incident, such as littering, jaywalking, loitering, etc... You DO have to provide identification, you cannot claim illegal search in this situation.

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Aye, they can actually pull you over for flicking a cigarette butt out the window, if they really wanted to.

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From the MLB:

 

Whether they like it or not, Major League Baseball has been drawn into the debate over Arizona's new immigration law.

 

One side has called for a boycott of all things Arizona and that included a protest Thursday outside Wrigley Field, where the Diamondbacks began a weekend series with the Cubs.

 

A New York congressman has called for Baseball to move the 2011 All-Star Game, now slated for Chase Field in Phoenix, to another location. Jeff Passan of Yahoo! Sports reports that Commissioner Bud Selig is unlikely to change the site of the game only 14 months before it is scheduled, but MLB officials have "discussed the potential ramifications."

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An Arizona police officer and a Latino group have filed the first legal challenges of Arizona's sweeping new law on illegal immigration2_bing.gif.

 

Fifteen-year Tucson police veteran Martin Escobar argues that there's no way for officers to confirm people's immigration status without impeding investigations. He filed a lawsuit Thursday in a Tucson federal court.

 

Separately, a Latino Clergy group filed a lawsuit in federal court in Phoenix.

 

The National Coalition of Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders will seek an injunction preventing authorities from enforcing the law.

 

The group argues federal law preempts state regulation of national borders, and that Arizona's law violates due process rights by letting police detain suspected illegal immigrants2_bing.gif before they're convicted.

 

©2010 The Associated Press2_bing.gif. All rights reserved.

 

 

http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/92459579.html

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BTW, I was out West a few days ago. Did you know they have a border checkpoint between Nevada and California? They actually stop you and ask if you have any fruit - and if you do they take them away.

 

That's been there for at least 25 years; California had serious problems with fruit flies and other pests impacting their crops, and set up checkpoints to try to prevent the importation of infected produce. Brings back memories of helicopters flying in formation over Orange County, spraying malathion over every square inch of it.

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Smells of racial profiling.

 

Ok, so living in california/texas my entire life, its pretty much accepted that the people doing your yard work are illegals. This isn't to say they are mexican, there's a lot of illegal asians doing yard work in california. It would seem reasonable that if you see someone doing yard work, the police officer would have suspicion they are illegals and check for papers. This would apply to farm work as well.

 

My problem is, if the person doing the yard work is of white skin, the asking for ID is never going to happen. If they are brown, its going to happen. It's racial profiling.

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My problem is, if the person doing the yard work is of white skin, the asking for ID is never going to happen. If they are brown, its going to happen. It's racial profiling.

 

Yard work is not a crime. End of story. Unless the yard worker committed a crime of some recognizable scale, simply doing yard work is not reason enough to arrest someone.

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Yard work is not a crime. End of story. Unless the yard worker committed a crime of some recognizable scale, simply doing yard work is not reason enough to arrest someone.

 

Right, but if that person (to get to your yard) hopped in a truck after an appropriate 'gesture or nod', then they could be questioned.

 

I still stand by this point:

 

Put it this way. If you're a cop in Arizona after this law goes into effect and you see two vans stuffed full of people, both speeding, simultaneously drive by. One is full of white people and one is full of darker-skinned Latinos. Which one are you more likely to think holds illegal immigrants, and which one are you then more likely to pull over?

 

Given an equal choice in a random circumstance, a policeman is going to be (due to factual basis based on the nationality of illegal immigrants in the country) more likely to pull over Latinos than anyone else.

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Right, but if that person (to get to your yard) hopped in a truck after an appropriate 'gesture or nod', then they could be questioned.

 

I still stand by this point:

 

 

 

Given an equal choice in a random circumstance, a policeman is going to be (due to factual basis based on the nationality of illegal immigrants in the country) more likely to pull over Latinos than anyone else.

 

I'm fine with both of these things. If caucasian males were the largely illegal population I wouldn't have any problem knowing that I may get asked to show my id and prove my citizenship. Kinda like, if caucasian males were blowing up planes, I understand I'd be more likely to be wanded/watched at the airport. That wouldn't bother me either.

 

I'm sick of all the kid gloves when it comes to racial profiling. No shit all the illegals around there are probably 95% or better latino, what do you want them to do? There's no way around it, and hey, here's a thought - racial profiling works. Do you really think this law would be better served if they equally asked as many caucasians or other ethnicities to show their id as latinos? I understand that it will be annoying and a hastle for the legal latino population out there, it's an unfortunate consequence of people illegaly border jumping. It's easy to blame the gov't here, when if you think about it the illegals directly cause the need for laws to deal with them.

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Right, but if that person (to get to your yard) hopped in a truck after an appropriate 'gesture or nod', then they could be questioned.

 

I still stand by this point:

 

 

 

Given an equal choice in a random circumstance, a policeman is going to be (due to factual basis based on the nationality of illegal immigrants in the country) more likely to pull over Latinos than anyone else.

 

First of all, in your scenario, both trucks would be pulled over.

Also, hopping into the back of a truck is illegal. You can't ride in the bed of a pickup truck. So yeah, they are going to get pulled over.

 

But if the person hopped into the passenger side, there was no crime committed. There would be no lawful reason to stop them.

 

Now, if you are going to fall on the age old "but they'll pull you over for even a small infraction because you're (insert racial profile here)" they would have done that anyway. The type of racial profiling you are talking about has been done in part to blacks across the US for years.

 

But here's my point. Cops pull over all flavors of people for minor infractions just to check on other things. I would venture a fairly educated guess that a very large majority of traffic stops are in the 'minor' frame. A broken headlight, failing to indicate, whatever. So, if some random worker jumped into a truck with a broken headlight on it, that's just too bad for the truck driver. There was a law broken, the situation prior (random latino hoping into the truck) would be the reason the officer would then ask to see everyone's papers.

 

Anyway, what's the big deal about protecting illegal aliens rights? Shouldn't we be trying to reduce the amount of illegal aliens in the US? What would you recommend doing to reduce the problem?

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Yard work is not a crime. End of story. Unless the yard worker committed a crime of some recognizable scale, simply doing yard work is not reason enough to arrest someone.

I'm getting really tired of your blatant disregard for other poster's actual posts, before you comment to try and refute with whatever random bullshit you come up with. I NEVER MENTION ARRESTING ANYONE, EVER IN THAT POST.

 

I made no mention of arresting someone for doing yard work. I made mention of asking for ID because of yard work and being brown. This bill is basically asking officers to racially profile.

 

From how I am reading the bill, yard work does not have to be a crime for an officer to request ID.

 

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY

21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS

22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS

23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,

24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.

 

Any lawful contact --- that seems extremely wide ranging. Says nothing about a crime having to be taking place, or any suspicion of a crime outside of being an illegal.

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Anyway, what's the big deal about protecting illegal aliens rights? Shouldn't we be trying to reduce the amount of illegal aliens in the US? What would you recommend doing to reduce the problem?

 

Uh, you should want to protect the rights of illegal aliens-- what little rights they have anyways. They're still human.

 

However, my opposition to this bill isn't about illegal's rights so much as it is about US citizen's rights, and LEGAL immigrant's rights.

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However, my opposition to this bill isn't about illegal's rights so much as it is about US citizen's rights, and LEGAL immigrant's rights.

 

This. The bill throws the baby out with the bathwater, as the saying goes.

 

As for solutions, I already named mine.

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As a U.S. citizen, I would almost want to go to AZ to just try and get accosted by the police, perhaps speak Spanish and stand at a street corner. Imagine what would happen if a U.S. citizen nearly gets deported because he/she leaves their ID at home.

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